Firstly, you should think about where you will make & sell Kurtoskalacs.
Will you be a mobile vendor & visit different festivals & events or will you be a ‘static’ vendor & stay in one fixed location?
We would normally suggest that ‘static’ vendors use an ELECTRIC appliance. The main reason for this is that the electric appliances do require a lot of power.
Electric appliances really need to be plugged into a mains electricity supply which is stable & where the appliances will receive the correct voltage & amperes.
The Electric appliances should not be connected to long electrical extension cables as this can result in voltage drop. Often at events you will be offered power from a cable that is far away from the actual mains supply. Also, several vendors could be running their machinery off the same cable & as (for example) the ELECTRIC OVEN 8 is rated at 13 amperes the fuse or circuit breaker could easily be overloaded which could result in the circuit breaker activating or fuse blowing & cutting off the power to the oven.
Some customers have asked if they could use a generator to power an electric oven, the answer is yes, but first you need to speak to your generator supplier to ask about which size generator you would require. Usually generators of the required power output are large & very expensive.
We manufacture all our equipment in either 230v or 120v. You should choose the machine’s voltage which matches the voltage which your country uses. The exception is the ELECTRIC OVEN 12 . This oven is built for Europe & requires a 400v three-phase supply, therefore it can only be used at a facility which has a three-phase supply.
We make three different ELECTRIC appliances in 120v.
Electric oven – 4 digital
Electric oven – 8 ECO digital
Electric grill – 6 ECO digital
The Electric 4 & 8-piece ovens & the Electric grill 6 are SINGLE-PHASE machines.
The Electric oven 4 digital 120v requires 15 amps & is fitted with a NEMA 5-15 plug. The Electric oven 8 Eco digital 120v requires 30amps & is fitted with a heavy duty NEMA
L5-30 twist lock plug. The Electric grill 6 Eco digital 120v requires 30amps & is fitted with a heavy duty NEMA
L5-30 twist lock plug.If you are looking to install the Electric oven 8 Eco digital 120v or the Electric grill 6 Eco
digital 120v at your facility you need to:(a) Ensure that the fuse board has a 30amp fuse or circuit breaker installed to support the
(b) Ensure that the cable going from the fuse board to the socket where the oven will be
plugged in is the correct thickness or gauge to support the machine.
(c) Install the correct electrical outlet socket (receptacle) which enables you to plug in the
machine with the heavy duty NEMA L5-30 twist lock plug.
A professional / qualified Electrician should be instructed to carry out the above-mentioned
tasks.CASE STUDY: We had a situation in the past whereas we had a customer located at a
semi-permanent market. Inside our customer’s booth there was a fuse board/consumer
unit with 3 x 20 amp fuses on different circuits.The organiser of the market would not install a 30amp fuse in the fuse board or install a
socket which would enable the customer to plug in an Electric oven 8 ECO digital 120v oven.In the end, to solve this issue, the customer purchased 2 x ELECTRIC OVEN 4 DIGITAL (which require 15amps each) & connected them both to different circuits.
Believe it or not we are asked this question quite a lot as some people assume that you must stand over the grill or oven & manually turn the COOKING ROLLS next to the heat source, this is not the case. Inside every machine we manufacturer there are a set of motors, one motor for each baking point. For example, the Electric oven 4 contains 4 motors where as the Gas grill 8 has 8 motors inside. With all our machines, as soon as they are turned on, all the motors start to rotate. Theadvantage of having one motor for each baking point, is that if one motor fails during operation you still have the remaining baking points to work with until you have the time toreplace the motor, unlike some other machines on the market which have just one motor & a drive chain. In the case of this type of machine, if the one motor breaks, the wholemachine will be out of order until the motor is changed. If the cooking rolls are removedcorrectly from the oven / grill, they should last a fair while. Motors generally fail due to user
In our opinion the more COOKING ROLLS you have the better!
We recommend that you have at least three sets of cooking rolls in relation to the size of your Kurtoskalacs baking machine. Therefore, if you have a 4 piece-oven, we suggest 12 rolls. For an 8-piece Chimney cake baking machine we suggest 24 rolls. If you have an 8-piece baking machine & want to make both standard size & cone size Kurtoskalacs then we suggest 24 of each type so 48 rolls in total.
When our customers ask us about the production capacities of our ovens or grills we always explain that it’s usually not the baking capabilities of the machine which determines how many Kurtoskalacs you can produce BUT the volume of Chimney cakes that is supplied to the oven or grill. This means that it’s down to the person or people rolling the dough strip onto the cooking roll. If the person rolling the dough onto the cooking roll is having to wait for fresh wooden rolls then the production line will slow or stop. Delays can happen when, for example, some rolls are being used for the actual bake, some are waiting to be cleaned & some have dough on them which is rising & not ready for baking yet. Having many rolls means that dough can be prepared in advance which ensures the grill or oven is never empty!
There are two purposes of the COOKING ROLL RACKS. The first is that you will need an organised & convenient place to store the cooking rolls when not in use. This will ensure that the rolls can be easily handled during production.
The second purpose is that after you have rolled the dough onto the cooking roll you will need to leave the dough to rise on the roll before baking. This is to enable air to circulate around the dough area & to ensure that the dough is not touching anything else. The cooking roll racks are ideal for this purpose.
We make roll surface racks & roll wall racks. The advantage of surface racks is that they can be easily moved around but please bear in mind that they could take up valuable work space.
We would always recommend the roll wall racks to customers who have suitable walls to fix them to, especially those who will be working from inside a food truck / trailer which may have limited space. Valuable work surface space is left free if wall racks are attached to the walls. We also think that the wall racks (especially when cooking rolls with dough are placed on them) are a good way to market & promote your business as curious customers are often drawn towards them to see what they are!
The size of kneading machine will depend on the amount of dough you wish to knead in one bowl. It’s important to know that when dough is made it should be used within 3 to 4 hours so that it’s at its best. Therefore, you should aim to knead several batches in one day according to the amount of hours you plan to be operating. If the machine is too big you will struggle with kneading a small batch of dough as a lot of flour or the other dry ingredients can be left stuck to the bottom & will not be combined in the dough. If the dough kneading machine is too small you will be kneading many batches of dough which is an un-economical use of your time.
We recommend that you obtain a 15 to 20 litre kneading machine.
There are also two types of kneading machines. One type has a fixed bowl & the other has a bowl that is detachable. We suggest you use a “Planetary mixer”. This type has a detachable bowl & usually have two or three different speed settings.
The main reason for recommending this type of kneading machine is that it is much easier to use & to clean. We have also seen that a lot of the kneading machines with the fixed bowls have just one speed., “slow”.
There is also an active second-hand market for kneading machines so consider checking out online selling sites such as eBay!
As you will have seen on our web site we make & supply COOKING ROLLS made from either Beech wood or food grade stainless steel.
Traditional rolls are made from Beech wood, but we started manufacturing stainless steel rolls as the certification company we use, NSF International informed us that they would not certify any equipment used in the food process industry that is made from wood. They would however certify the rolls if they were made from food grade stainless steel.
If you ask a food inspector in any country in the world, “which rolls should I use, wood or steel?” I guarantee that you will be told to use the stainless-steel rolls, however we have sold thousands of wooden rolls all over the world & none of our vendors have been ever been told to stop using them.
Our personal preference is to use the wooden rolls for the sweet Chimney Cake & the stainless-steel rolls for the savoury version of Kurtos. The reason is that when we make savoury Kurtos we add olive oil, herbs, garlic, salt etc & the smell & taste is difficult to remove from the wooden rolls. With regards the stainless-steel rolls you can completely submerge them in water & scrub them clean or you can clean them in a dishwasher.
Finally, when using wooden rolls, you should cover as much of the wooden roll surface as possible with dough. Large exposed areas will darken & burn after time. If you use the stainless-steel rolls, exposed areas will not burn & can be cleaned more thoroughly.
The cooking area of the WOODEN ROLL is made from natural, untreated Beech wood. This means that no varnish or chemicals have been used on the wood.
When you receive the wooden rolls, they are new & unseasoned therefore, the first thing that you MUST do is season the wood. If you don’t the dough will stick to the roll after baking. The dry wood will also ‘suck’ out the moisture from the dough during the baking resulting in a dry baked dough. The unseasoned wood will also crack & splinter over time.
To season the wooden roll, you simply paint the wooden cooking area all over with cooking oil such as sunflower oil. It is important to include the end parts of the rolls. To ensure that the oil soaks into the wood you should do this a few times per day for around 3 days. Some customers tell us that they pour the oil into a bucket & completely submerge the rolls into the oil for 24 hours so that the wood fully absorbs the oil.
Since the wooden rolls are subjected to extreme heat, water & oil several times per day, the wooden cooking area will crack over time. You will usually see signs of cracking after only a small amount of use, however the cracking will settle down. It’s rare that a wooden roll will completely crack from end to end.
Finally, when using wooden rolls, you should cover as much of the wooden roll surface area as possible with dough. Large exposed areas will darken & burn after time.
The stainless-steel cooking rolls can be soaked in water or cleaned inside a dishwasher due to the nature of the material they are made from. As they are hollow, a bottle brush can be pushed inside to clean the inside of the cooking roll. Normal washing detergent can be used.
When you clean the wooden cooking rolls you should wash then under clean, running water & not submerge them in water. If you do, the wood will absorb too much water & the rolls will swell & finally crack. Also, during the baking process, water which was absorbed can be released resulting in soggy & unbaked dough. During production, it is sufficient to wipe the rolls in between baking with a clean, hot, wet cloth, then at the end of the baking day, clean more thoroughly.
We stock & sell spare parts for all our machines & offer a comprehensive after sales technical support service. Some customers have changed parts themselves as in most instances it is a straight forward job. A general appliance repair engineer would be able to make repairs for you if you are unsure of your own technical abilities. When dealing with gas we always suggest that you use a qualified gas repair service so that the appliance can be tested properly for gas leaks after the part has been changed & before the machine is used again.
Some customers do ask to purchase essential spare parts when they purchase their equipment to keep as spares at their facility where the machine will be in use.
The electrical heating elements inside the Electric machines are consumable parts. This means that they will need changing after a period of usage time. They are rated for 2500- 3000 working hours.
Motors generally break due to incorrect use by the user. If the user is not removing the cooking roll correctly from the machine or the user is holding onto the cooking roll for too long when it is rotating it can result in damage to the motors.
Flour is the main ingredient in the recipe of Kurtoskalacs. For example, for every 250g of KURTOSKALACS EASY MIX, you use 1kg of flour. The type of flour you need to use is fine, white, wheat flour with a medium to high gluten content. This type of flour is generally used to make products such as soft buns, croissants, pizza & American sandwich bread. So, look for a cake flour & not a pasty or bread flour.We suggest a flour with an ash content of 0.6 – 0.8% & a protein content of 13.0 – 14% It can take a little time with several baking/tasting sessions to find the correct flour. When we travel to a country for the first time, we often spend the first day testing different local flours, especially if we have not had any experience working or dealing with customers in that country before.
The KURTOSKALACS EASY MIX is suitable for a Halal & vegetarian diet. None of the ingredients in the mix are derived from animal meat products. The Kurtoskalacs EASY mix does contain milk powder; however, the milk powder is sourced from Europe, which means that it is not coming from milk cows which have been injected with growth hormones as this practice is illegal in Europe. We do not have a specific Halal certificate for this product as it contains nothing derived from a dead animal. We have already shipped Kurtoskalacs EASY mix to many Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Jordan, Kuwait Oman&UAE. As the Kurtoskalacs EASY mix is a food product, we recommend that you double check what the most up to date import regulations are with your local customs or an import broker& ask what documentation is required BEFORE we dispatch an order that includes the Kurtoskalacs EASY mix.
There are no eggs in the KURTOSKALACS EASY MIX or included in the complete Chimney cake recipe. Inside the Kurtoskalacs EASY mix are natural enzymes which replicate the job that an egg does. The reason why we do not include eggs in our recipe is that if you use eggs, your food inspector may apply more strict rules regarding where the dough is prepared & how long it is kept for. Also, some people have an allergy to eggs.
Our Chimney cake recipe contains 5 ingredients other than the KURTOSKALACS EASY MIX.
Water – is available in your country.
Sunflower oil – is available in most countries – If we were to add oil powder, the shelf life of the mix would be reduced.
Orange zest & orange juice–is available in most countries – If we were to add orange flavor, it would be artificial & not all customers add this so not adding it gives our customers a choice.
Yeast – is available in most countries – If we added the yeast (dry) due to the granular size, it could easily fall to the bottom of the bag, which would mean that you might not get the right quantity in one scoop from the bag. Adding yeast would reduce the shelf life of the product. A lot of our customers also like to use FRESH yeast as they feel it gives a better result.
Flour – is available in most countries – If we were to add flour, it would make the mixed bag very heavy which would mean that the shipping/delivery costs per bag would increase a lot. The recipe states that for every 1kg of flour, you need just 250g of Kurtoskalacs EASY mix. Adding the flour would turn a 15kg bag into a 75kg bag of Kurtos mix.
To knead the dough correctly, you need a commercial kneading machine which has a ‘bread kneading’ tool.
The length of time to knead can depend on the size of the kneading bowl, the amount of dough you are kneading & the speed of the machine.
The kneading time is roughly 6-10 minutes. We suggest that you start at the slowest speed so that you don’t get covered in powder & move to a faster speed to complete the process.
During the kneading process, the dough becomes warm, which is good as it will activate the yeast, however, do not let the dough get too warm as yeast can be killed if it gets too hot.
You can always check the dough during the kneading process by stopping the machine & checking it with your fingers to feel the texture/consistency of the dough.
When you remove the dough from the kneading bowl, it should not feel dry or it should not stick all over your hands once you have shaped it into a ball. You can adjust the water content to fix any consistency issues.
There are THREE stages of rising the dough.
1) Stage 1 is after you have kneaded all the ingredients in the kneading machine. After removing the dough from the kneading machine, use your hands to make a neat ball. Place in a plastic container&paint the dough with sunflower oil. Next, you should cover the ball of dough with plastic cling film wrap, allowing space for the dough to rise and then put it in a warm place to rise. Around 25oc – 27oc. The dough should rise for 1 hour or until it has doubled in size.
2) Stage 2. Remove the big ball of dough from the plastic container & split the dough into Kurtos size portions. The size/weight of the portions will depend on the type of Kurtos you will make & which cooking roll (size) you will use. We have created a table which lists how many grams of dough we suggest using on all the cooking rolls we produce, which is included on the ‘Step by Step’ guide which we provide for free with every oven or grill purchase.
3) Stage 3 of rising is the most IMPORTANT. It’s when the dough has risen on the cooking roll. Once the dough is wrapped onto the cooking roll, paint the dough with oil, apply the sugar & place the roll onto a rolling rack to allow the dough to rise BEFORE baking. As the dough is rising, small holes will form inside the dough. It’s these small holes that the heat travels through during baking which cook the inside of the dough. The baked dough should be light & fluffy on the inside. One of the biggest issues reported to us is that the dough has not cooked on the inside which is usually down to the fact that the dough has not been left to rise long enough on the cooking roll.
Yes, the dough our recipe produces is not too sweet or too salty which means that it can be used to make BOTH the sweet & savory version.
The difference in the dough when making a sweet or savory version is the quantity of dough used. For example, when we make a sweet Kurtos on a standard wooden roll, we suggest 170g of dough. However, when we make a savory version on the same size roll, we suggest 150g of dough. The reason for this is we add other ingredients to the savory dough, such as cheese, olives & herbs. This makes the dough thicker which results in the dough not baking correctly on the inside if the dough is too thick. Also, if the dough is too thick due to the additional ingredients, it will collapse due to the weight because it won’t cook correctly on the inside. Reducing the dough when making a savory version ensures that the dough cooks all the way to the inside & that it stands up once baked without falling over.
No. Even if you refrigerate the dough, it will still rise. For example, when making pizza dough, you can make the dough the day before and refrigerate to use the dough the following day because there is very little yeast in pizza dough compared to Chimney cake dough. To get the best results, you should make several batches of dough throughout the working day. You should use a batch of dough within 3-4 hours after it has been kneaded. You can refrigerate the dough to SLOW the rise, but it will still rise & potentially can over rise. If the dough over rises, it will be difficult to roll as the gluten will break down which will result in the dough breaking during rolling. The dough will also start to smell very strongly of yeast as it will start to ferment.
We have worked with several franchises who make the dough in one location, shock freeze (blast freeze) the dough & then distribute it to multiple selling locations. The advantage of this method is each selling point does not require a kneading machine or storage for the ingredients of the dough. It also means that the owner of the franchise knows exactly how much the dough has been supplied to that selling point so that sales can be accounted for. Dough which is left at the end of the day cannot be frozen for the next day. Dough should be frozen as soon as its made. Some customers have had a little success freezing the dough with a domestic freezer, but best results are achieved by making fresh batches of dough throughout the days production.
This is a very difficult question to answer as it all depends on how many Kurtos you are likely to sell. We work with lots of vendors, from sole traders to companies with multiple stores. It is quite possible for just one person to produce & sell Kurtos. We estimate one person could make & serve on average 20-25 pieces per hour. However, it is more common to have two workers. The first worker deals with the dough. Makes the dough, rolls the dough & prepares it onto the cooking rolls. The second person bakes applies toppings & serves the customer. At bigger events, a third person can come in to relive one of the other two workers, makeup batches of dough, clean down work surfaces & rolls. At major events, when you will be baking & selling nonstop, then 5 or even 6 workers are needed. Two or three workers dealing with the dough side, one baking & toppings & one taking orders, receiving money & serving.
Some vendors will put Nutella inside the Chimney cake, some will spread it onto the outside. In both cases, it is much quicker &easier to apply if you warm the spread first. If the Nutella is not warm, it can be difficult to apply & you might put too much pressure on the spatula which can damage the baked Kurtos during the application.
The best way to warm the Nutella is to put it inside one of our MELTERS. The model of melter which we sell does not need water which is an advantage as you don’t have to worry about the water drying out & burning the Nutella / chocolate.
You can also put other spreads inside the melter too to ease the application such as honey, chocolate or Lotus spread.
Another way of serving Nutella is as a dip. Simply place warm, melted Nutella into a small condiment pot with a lid so that the customer can take it away with them & dip in their baked Kurtos at their own leisure!
We think that the best type of cheese is ‘Cheddar’. Cheddar has a nice flavour (the aged Cheddar even better) & it melts easily. But you can experiment. For example, some customers have told us that they a mix of Cheddar & Mozzarella. A customer in Cyprus said she had used Halloumi cheese.
The trick is not to use too much cheese as it will fall off during the baking process& make a mess of the oven or grill or will weigh the Kurtos down too much which will result in the baked Kurtos from collapsing or not standing on its end once its removed from the cooking roll.
The Kurtos should be served as a freshly baked product. There are no artificial additives or preservatives in our recipe & so it should be eaten the same day as its made. Putting it inside suitable packaging such as the micro-perforated SERVING BAGS will keep the product fresher for longer.
In the case of the sweet Kurtos, you can use anything that sticks to the melted sugar. The most common toppings are coconut, cinnamon sugar, chocolate powder & nuts. When we use nuts, we put them first into a food processor & make small pieces so that the nuts stick to the caramelised sugar. I also like to toast the nuts on a tray under the grill which really brings out the nutty flavor, especially with almonds.
A recent trend has been to use ‘freeze-dried raspberries’ which results in a wonderful red/pink topping. To make this topping, you simply whizz up the freeze-dried raspberry’s in a food processor & add some sugar (to make the powder go further as freeze-dried raspberries are quite expensive).
Other ideas for toppings are puffed rice, rainbow sprinkles, Oreo biscuits, lotus biscuit or crushed sweets such as M & M’S. One customer even included a crushed candy cane topping in their Christmas menu.
We normally apply the sugar to the dough as soon as we have rolled it onto the cooking roll & painted with cooking oil. In other words, before we leave the dough to rise on the cooking roll. The sugar then encourages the dough to rise on the cooking roll before baking.
HOWEVER, this method might not work for everyone. We have found that in some countries with high humidity, the sugar can start to melt & drip off the dough before it’s been anywhere near the grill / oven. Therefore, if this is the case, we advise to roll the dough onto the cooking roll, paint with sunflower oil & leave to rise. Then JUST BEFORE baking, apply the sugar & bake immediately.
Its important that you knock / shake the cooking roll to remove any excess sugar before baking so that the sugar granules don’t fall down easily & mess up the grill / oven. Its also very important that sugar does not cover the pin of the cooking roll as this pin is inserted into the motor. Melted sugar inside the motor will prevent the motor from turning, which will eventually break the motor.
This is a very good question as I often dream about running off to a Caribbean Island with the money you have paid us! Joking aside. For a small company we are very visible on the internet. You can see our machines being used all over the world. We also have our own Facebook page where we share posts made by our customers. There is also a “Recommendations and reviews” section on our Facebook page where customers leave feedback, which we cannot change or delete.
Please understand that we are not allowed to send you any contact details of our customers due to the data protection act. However, you can contact customers who you can see are using our equipment via social media as they are publicly sharing their contact information.
As soon as we dispatch the goods to you, we send you a tracking number so that you can follow the progress of the shipment. We fully insure goods for loss or damage.
The company Ko-ordinator d.o.o. is registered in The Republic of Slovenia.
You can check / validate the business is real & solvent by using the AJPES web site.
AJPES manages the Slovenian business register as a central public database on all business entities located in Slovenia which perform profitable or non-profitable activities.
Yes, we can obtain prices to ship your equipment via sea. However, sea freight is usually more cost effective for large consignments, packed on pallets. Quotes for sea freight are usually calculated by the cubic meter. We would always recommend that you assign a broker at your side BEFORE we dispatch the goods, so that you are aware of the landing fees, brokerage fees & taxes.Once the goods are loaded onto the ship, we shall receive a BOL (Bill of landing) A bill of Lading serves three main functions:
The BOL as well as any other documents will be sent via air, to arrive before the actual consignment
Unfortunately, we are not able to accept PayPal anymore in Slovenia as we do not have the option to take funds from our PayPal account to our business bank account. All our suppliers are paid via the bank & so we need the payments to go directly to our bank account so that we can pay our suppliers & shippers.
We do not accept any credit or debit cards as we do not have any way of processing a transaction using cards.
No, we cannot offer a COD service as none of our shippers / delivery companies offer this service. All goods must be paid for in full before we ship. We are not able to create a commercial invoice without receiving the full payment, especially when we are exporting outside of the EU as customs check the commercial invoice against funds received & the goods which we are shipping.
We accept payment by ‘bank to bank’ transfer only. When you place the order, we send you a proforma invoice as well as detailed bank information. If you are not in the Eurozone, we suggest using TRANSFERWISE as this company will usually give you a much better exchange rate than what the banks give. Once your account is set up, it is an easy, trusted service to use.
We aim to dispatch all orders within 10 working days of receiving your payment. Most of our equipment is held in stock, however we are a small business & sometimes we must wait for our engineers to build new stock.
Some customers will ask for bespoke items which we make to order which will have a longer period from order to dispatch.
A tracking number is created as soon as we dispatch goods to TNT / Fedex. This number is automatically sent to you by email.
When we use DHL Global forwarding (our freight partner), we must wait for them to send us an airway bill which will include details of the flight number(s) the cargo will go on. We send this to you via email as soon as we have it, along with the commercial invoice, packing list & any other documents you requested. If you require these documents in paper form, we must send them via air courier which there will be an additional cost for.
Yes, we can obtain prices to ship your equipment via sea. However, sea freight is usually more cost effective for large consignments, packed on pallets. Quotes for sea freight are usually calculated by the cubic meter. We would always recommend that you assign a broker at your side BEFORE we dispatch the goods, so that you are aware of the landing fees, brokerage fees & taxes.
Once the goods are loaded onto the ship, we shall receive a BOL (Bill of landing)
A bill of Lading serves three main functions:
The BOL as well as any other documents will be sent via air, to arrive before the actual consignment does.
First, goods must be paid for BEFORE we will allow them to be taken away.
We will inform you of the weight & dimensions of your order so that you can inform the person or company who will collect the goods from us.
If goods are shipped within the EU, you can arrange for a shipper or private person to collect from us at an agreed time.
If goods are to be shipped outside of the EU, a legitimate shipping company must be used as export documents must be completed. Your shipping company will normally have a partner in Slovenia who will contact us to arrange the collection. Normally we attach a commercial invoice to the consignment. If other documents are required, you must inform us beforehand so that we can have everything ready in advance to give to your shipper or their shipping partner.
Yes, you can. We need to know a rough idea of what goods you would like to take with you so that we have the correct items in stock when you come to collect.
If you are collecting the goods in your own vehicle & taking them straight home, we won’t pack & wrap the goods.
If you are going to take the equipment on an aeroplane, the equipment will need to be packed & wrapped. You must inform us which airline you are traveling on as well as how many packages you can take with you & what the maximum weight & dimensions of each package can be so that we can pack accordingly.